Home » Atlanta PHP Community » Organizational Topics » Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals
| Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #112] |
Fri, 07 July 2006 14:52  |
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feyn
Messages: 105
Registered: June 2006 |
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When I attended the PHP Atlanta meeting last night, it seemed as if there were two distinct groups with very different needs. The Hobbyists seemed to want to cover more fundamental topics, while the Professionals seemed to want more advanced discussions. Trying to cover topics as diverse as the do's and don't of the switch statement as well as the proper interpretation of "Defense in Depth" within the same meeting is going to leave one of these groups bored at any given time.
This phenomenon of a PHP user group attracting both Hobbyists and Professionals is, I believe, a side effect of the versatility of the PHP language itself. Knowing that the language offers both a low barrier to entry and enterprise grade features, we should adjust out meetings to reflect the needs of both audiences.
I would expect the Hobbyists would want topics such as:
- A beginners introduction to the PHP language
- Setting up PHP & MySQL on Windows and shared hosts
- Getting data from Forms, to the Database, and back again
- Building widgets like, Blogs, Forums, Calendars, etc.
- How to handle File uploads
- How to send HTML emails with Attachments
- Validating with Regular Expressions
- Writing clean, maintainable code
- And Introduction to Object Oriented Programming
I would expect the Professionals would want topics such as:
- Design Patterns
- What to look for when selected a Framework
- PHP5 Features such as the Standard PHP Library
- Localization and Internationalization
- Security Testing
- Performance Tuning
- Ruby vs. PHP (the languages, not the frameworks)
- Duck Typing in PHP
- Debugging best practices
- Test Driven Development (TDD) in PHP
- Integration and Deployment best practices
If the majority agrees with this assessment, I would suggest alternating months with Hobbyist and Professional topics. Alternatively, we could simply hold twice monthly meetings - one for Hobbyists and one for Professionals. This would reduce the size of both meetings, but ultimately result in more useful and enjoyable sessions, and thus encourage a steadily growing attendance.
[Updated on: Fri, 07 July 2006 16:11]
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #119 is a reply to message #112 ] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 03:18  |
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 ramsey
Messages: 239
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Location: Canton, GA |
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I'd like to shy away from having two separate meetings right now, especially since our group is still very young (just over a year old), and the "core group" of members is still forming; I don't think our core group has even reached a critical mass yet.
Still, this is the major balancing act we're trying to perform... how can we cater to both hobbyists and professionals within the same meeting?
I think we may be able to do both, but our meetings will require a bit more structure. Our meetings tend to run about 2 hours, the first 30 minutes of which is "dead time" of waiting on people to arrive. Instead of doing nothing productive during this time, perhaps we can start the meeting with break-out groups. We would have two or three groups focusing on specific topics of interest. As members arrive, they can pick the group they want to participate in and make their way to that group. These groups could meet for 45 minutes (from 7-7:45), then we come back together for a large group presentation, which can usually center on an intermediate/advanced or business topic.
It does not matter if all questions or issues were not answered or resolved during the 45 minute break-out sessions. The discussion can continue after the meeting over drinks/food or on the forums.
The issue now is that we need break-out leaders, some of which may have to sacrifice sitting in on a more advanced break-out group in order to lead a more beginner-level group.
How does this sound?
Ben Ramsey
http://benramsey.com
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #121 is a reply to message #119 ] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 14:09 |
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ramsey
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While I was out mowing the yard, it occurred to me that I might need to explain why I want to "shy away" from having two meetings, while I agree with you that these targeted meetings would be beneficial to those who attend.
The main issue is this: "newbies" learn best from "oldbies." If one meeting caters to newbies and the other caters to oldbies, then there's no incentive for the oldbies to attend the newbie meeting. Thus, the newbies have no real value in going to the newbie meeting. They might as well attend the oldbie meeting.
That said, I think the number of newbies we have might warrant the need for a "PHP Essentials" class similar to the one I teach online. This is a class that could be taught 2 or 3 times a year in rotation. It would probably be a 3-day-long class, each class lasting an entire day. Finally, I couldn't offer it for free for several reasons (my time, or anyone else's time who happens to be teaching it) and meeting space (unless we can use for free whatever space it is that ends up being our permanent home). I could talk to php|architect to see if they would be interested in hosting their courses in Atlanta so that we could use their material.
On the other hand, rather than teach an essentials/basics class in 3 days, it could be split up over the course of the year (1 night a month), but I think that this method of learning is not very beneficial or efficient, and many in the class will exceed beyond the monthly lessons because they'll go on to teach themselves between meetings.
I still think the best way to cater to the varying problems faced by hobbyists and professionals in their experience with and use of PHP is to have break-out groups at our meetings as I described in my last post.
Ben Ramsey
http://benramsey.com
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #122 is a reply to message #112 ] |
Sat, 08 July 2006 14:50 |
Wyrme
Messages: 150
Registered: June 2006
Location: Roswell, GA |
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My first thoughts when reading the initiating post of this thread were:
1. Right on! That's the ticket, and
2. What a daunting task for the organizers and tutors of a group so small and young.
The breakout group idea is excellent. As an initial stage, it may be just what the doctor ordered. Aside from providing valuable concentrated material for both knowledge and experience levels, the split format can serve as a warm-up to introduce new concepts, terms, and ideas prior to the advanced material being addressed. All this without over-taxing those who will be presenting.
I am tickled to see that the General PHP Help area is getting some attention. I have questions, queries, posers and look forward to posting some thoughts there. This too, can be a valuable tool in bringing folks up to speed.
I am who I am and if you don't like it, then maybe you are just normal...
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #132 is a reply to message #112 ] |
Sun, 09 July 2006 17:54 |
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feyn
Messages: 105
Registered: June 2006 |
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The best part about proposing ideas is that you're not accoutable for executing them. The worst part about starting and leading a group is that you are.
Since I'm not ready to sign up to lead a second monthly meeting and I'm not sure anyone would even show up, I agree with Ben - we should focus on single meetings with breakouts. This doesn't mean I necessarily change my mind for the long term, but I'm a strong believer in "lead, follow, or get out of the way". In this case I'm electing to "follow".
This leaves us with the problem of how to manage the breakouts. Can't say I have any brilliant suggestions there.
-- Neil
[Updated on: Sun, 09 July 2006 21:03]
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #156 is a reply to message #139 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 11:37 |
maelstrom
Messages: 66
Registered: July 2006 |
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| ramsey wrote on Mon, 10 July 2006 19:43 |
| gcrisp-atlphp wrote on Mon, 10 July 2006 09:01 |
Is the distinction really between hobbyists and professionals, or is it between new and advanced users? Or perhaps both?
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I think the real distinction we're trying to make is between new and advanced users. For lack of better terms, we've been throwing around the terms "hobbyists" and "professionals."
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To me, the distinction is not really within the individual member per se.
It's apparent that both advanced "people" (whatever) and those who are not advanced "people" (categories schmategories) have interests in a variety of topics regarding PHP (itself, or PHP-related). So it's along that line where the meetings and the discussion groups end up drawing the distinction. Or division.
Because no one is PHP-omniscient (hmm), I would imagine most member would like to walk away from each meeting or discussion (groups or otherwise) with insight on something new, or new insight on something not-so-new, regardless of their background.
Perhaps meeting should remain singular, as the numbers in the group is still small. But the topic of discussion and/or agenda per meeting should fracture when it makes sense. That's not a hard requirement, but something that'll permit a general topic to segue/splinter out into a general-continuation, or a more intense drill down for those who's looking for that intensity.
So, the schedule for breakout sessions/sub-group should follow the "main" meeting and not before it. This way, either interest or presence/absence will guide the flow, more naturally.
Looking over what I just wrote, I'm not sure if I've expressed my ideas very clearly. Hmm...
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #167 is a reply to message #156 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 16:56 |
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ramsey
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| maelstrom wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 11:37 |
Perhaps meeting should remain singular, as the numbers in the group is still small. But the topic of discussion and/or agenda per meeting should fracture when it makes sense. That's not a hard requirement, but something that'll permit a general topic to segue/splinter out into a general-continuation, or a more intense drill down for those who's looking for that intensity.
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The only issue I have with this is that our meetings are generally going to be less free-form than the last meeting we had. Our last meeting was an open discussion. Usually, our meetings have a presentation that does not have so much discussion until the end where people are free to ask questions of the presenter.
I would be open to following a format where we begin with a presentation and then end with a discussion about the presentation that allows us to sort of meander and split off to separate topic discussions when needed. However, I also believe there is value in having more structure in our meeting. Ending our meetings in this way provides no real format for when our discussions end. Thus, if we need to cover any business or tell people it's time to close up the meeting space at the end, I think it may be an awkward and even confusing closing to our meetings--especially since discussions will have the tendancy to meander way off topic and it will be harder to gain anyone's attention by the end of the meeting since everyone will have mentally "checked-out" from a group meeting mentality and will be in small groups. I think we can avoid this distraction by having small groups first, promptly ending them for a break at 7:45pm, and then gathering back as a group at about 7:55. People will always be aware that a presentation is going to take place at this time and so will be mentally prepared for it. Afterwards, since the group is still together, we can cover any business, announcements, or give-aways we might have and then we can dismiss. This also gives people the opportunity to arrive a little late (due to traffic, etc.) without interrupting the main presentation. Coming in late doesn't typically interrupt small group discussions because it's not as distracting.
Sorry it sounds like I've thought a lot about the psychology of meetings, but I have actually given a lot of thought to this. 
Ben Ramsey
http://benramsey.com
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| Re: Catering to Both Hobbyists and Professionals [message #181 is a reply to message #179 ] |
Thu, 13 July 2006 21:01 |
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ramsey
Messages: 239
Registered: March 2006
Location: Canton, GA |
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| kenneth wrote on Thu, 13 July 2006 20:07 |
Since I have only attended this last meeting, I have yet to experience the presentation meeting so I have no knowledge to base these meetings on. What is the scope and focus of the presentations at these meetings?
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The scope and focus are up to the presenter. I've been doing presentations at the past couple of meetings, but I want to move away from that so that others have the opportunity to do so and so that our group can learn from a variety of people.
The door is not exactly being knocked down by people requesting to speak, so it's not like I have a Request For Proposals in place where I select a presenter based on the interest/value I see in the topic. In short, if someone's willing to present and they have a topic they have some knowledge in, then I'm willing to allow them to present. We will start structuring this soon, however. See the Quarterly Speaking Schedule thread for details.
Ben Ramsey
http://benramsey.com
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